Transcript
We're about to find out.
Hmm, okay.
I think I'm good.
Matrix attack.
happens.
Fine.
Life's good.
I'm back in action. All right, good. I am back on screen. So let me just get our friend, Mr. Carbstrong, back.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
As it looks like I'm frantically scrambling on my laptop to get the show back up and running. All I'm doing is messaging my tech guy saying, bro, WTF. That's it. That's all I'm doing.
So we should be good in a moment or two.
Bear with me. I remember the last question.
that we were wrong.
So I'm going to hopefully pick up where I left off. And hopefully no one's too upset.
about losing four or five minutes.
I know you've missed me and the cigar has gone down.
But don't worry, I bought a pack of cigarettes, so if I run out of cigar, I'm still going to stay online and keep this conversation flowing. Because...
That's the way it is.
And here we go.
Right. I think I've got you back. Do I?
Is your mic muted? I can't. You're back on my end, mate. Good, and you're back here as well. You can't hear me? I can hear you perfectly fine. That's wonderful. So, the question that we just finished is we were talking about the dog meat farm that trolled me and sold the story to the newspaper. And I was saying that I don't particularly care if somebody eats their own dog and that the dog meat festivals that happen in China, etc. I don't want to go there and stop them from doing it.
So I guess why should I?
- Well, why do you?
you got a photographic memory mate that was actually very spot on you see you held that thought didn't you absolutely so actually
Well,
it doesn't matter to me whether or not they are my dog or my property or whatever. Like I look at I look at the the animals inherent
value so like it doesn't matter if that human being is
my friend, it would matter more to me if they were my family. Yes, I would attack with violent force if necessary to defend them. But it also matters to me what happens to people I don't know. So in the same case with dogs, if I've seen someone attacking a dog, being cruel to a dog, then I'm going to probably run up and punch him in the head just as I would if they were my own dog, because I'd be like, what are you doing? And what reason do you have to do that? Now,
When you talk about other cultures doing something horrible to animals, it doesn't matter to me that it's their culture. It doesn't justify doing something bad just because it's your culture. There are good things about certain cultures, there are also bad things about certain cultures, and it doesn't morally justify an action just because it's cultural or whatever. So my question to you is, do you only care about
because i asked you about your dog the job the dog charity not every dog at that charity is your dog
True. Well, that's true. But I completely finance it and the dogs are rescued from the streets. And you're saying like doing cruel things to animals just because I eat meat.
doesn't mean that I advocate animal cruelty for no reason.
You see, I know it's cruel. I know factory farms are cruel. I know where my chickens come from. I know where my beef comes from. I'm not a stupid person. I know I've killed animals myself. I've killed pigs with knives, in fact, on a part of a reality TV show. So I'm not a coward. I know exactly where my food comes from.
dog meat farms raising dogs for meat because I understand what they're raising those dogs for. And they're perfectly entitled to do that. I can try to reduce cruelty.
But I think cruelty is completely justified completely when it comes to getting fed. I think that the shark that could bite me in half is totally justified to bite me in half. The shark committed no moral evil, even if it bit me.
What am I doing in the ocean anyway?
Yeah, you should stay out of the ocean. I'm a big advocate for staying out of the ocean when the sharks are around. That's for sure. Well, same. That's because I'm half black and black people hate the ocean. I just inherited it from there, I think.
I stay clear of the ocean, but I think what you're talking about here is, so basically you're making the point you're saying that cruelty is justified if you've got it.
If you're going to eat the animal, basically, you can do whatever you want to them. Is that what your position is? No.
Know whatever you want.
Why would that be my position?
I don't think you should cut their legs off while they're alive.
Killing something is never going to be not cool.
I genuinely, if somebody was raising an animal for food, let's say a chicken, and cut its wings off when it was alive, I honestly wouldn't care that much about the chicken. I'm going to be honest. I'm not going to pretend that I would care. I do think it's unnecessary. I wouldn't do it. But you can't kill something in a non-cruel way.
Killing something is always cruel.
So the cruelty has to, you have to see cruelty as justifiable if you're going to eat meat. Wouldn't you agree with that at least?
Well, there's something called the welfare system.
movement and they there's two sides of this story here there's obviously factory farming which most people agree is bad but they mostly support it through their i don't think it's bad consumer habits
Do you think factory farming is bad? No.
I think it's a miracle that we can have 7 billion, 8 billion people on a planet and we can all feed them. And anywhere in the world I go, anywhere on earth I go, if I want a steak or a chicken breast or some eggs, I can get hold of them. I think the food supply chain that humans have built and constructed in order to raise this great civilization is incredible.
And I know that involves factory farms. So no, I don't think factory farms are unjustifiable in any way. Are they cruel? Maybe. Maybe.
But I don't care. I think it's an amazing feat of human ingenuity.
Okay, I think I'm getting closer here to your position here. I think you... But just forgive me here if I don't want to come across as rude or anything like that. But before, I thought you said... So you said factory farming is cruel. Yeah. Yeah.
And cruelty can be justified.
cruelty can be justified if you're going to eat the animal is what is what your position is yeah yeah
around a problem well let's let's just unpack it because if we can't even agree that being cruel to animals is bad then we won't really have to talk about
uh animal rights which is what i advocate for i advocate for the rights of the animal their their right to life even if you say you know if you shot a human in the back of the head that's murder you've basically taken away their right to exist you violated their rights and it doesn't matter if you're a human yes
If you've caused them suffering or not, shooting someone in the head if they didn't feel it is murder, yeah?
shooting a person in the head is murder yeah
Thou shalt not kill.
And you violated their human rights, haven't you? You violated their right to life, essentially, yeah? Yeah, I mean, the Human Rights Act is a very real thing.
There was no Human Rights Act up until the 1960s, is it? I think the European Union came up with it. But no, I don't think the animals get the same rights as humans. No way.
Absolutely not.
What I'm saying is we don't even really need to talk about animal rights right now. We can just talk about animal cruelty, which is different. It's their welfare, which is, you know, like the people that believe you can be kind to an animal before you kill them. But you're taking the position that factory farming is like a great invention. And it's like amazing that we can feed 8 billion people, 80 billion animals that are suffering these horrible sheds. Yes.
a lot of investigations and exposés. I saw your video about the pigs in gas chambers.
There we go. So that's free range pigs go to this gas chamber. So do I think that's wrong?
Do you think it's wrong that they suffer for 30 seconds to a minute in a dungeon filled with gas and in their own feces screaming for mercy? I know. I actually don't. I don't care at all. I think that there's no kind way of killing something and killing something is necessary to...
keep up the meat production of the world. So I think it's perfectly fine. Obviously, it'd be nice if you could click your fingers and they just completely drop out of consciousness. There is a way of killing things that was 100% harmless or pleasurable.
That would be preferable, I guess, but there isn't.
I don't want to be killed. Do you?
Thank you.
No, I don't want to be murdered. I don't want to suffer in a gas train. But I like to eat bacon and somebody has to kill the pigs.
It is a reality. I mean, but to say you don't care at all about these animals suffering to death, like in this gas chamber, seems a bit like...
like you're lacking empathy that most of the population would have. I mean, it's a pig. It was raised for a reason. And also my position is this on pigs and cows and dogs on all these things.
There's not a single farm animal almost. There's not a single farm animal which exists exactly as it is on the farm out in nature. All of these things were produced by humans. Pigs in nature, I've seen them. They're short and fucking muscly and brown and hairy. They've got tusks and they're fast and they're dangerous. The big fat lazy pink pigs exist because we bred them to be that way. Every single form of cattle exists.
Every single form is descendant of the European oryx, which has been extinct for over 400 something years. Humans have created these animals through selective breeding. In fact, if you want to make an argument not to eat dogs, I'd understand it a bit more than cows and pigs, because dogs were selectively bred by people, but not for food. Dogs were selectively bred by people to be hunters and to be retrievers. That's why they still have these names today. But if someone wants to eat a dog, I still don't care.
countryside when we decided to show up and kill them they were specifically bred for that purpose is why they get so fat so fast is why you can feed them almost anything and they put on body mass
So yeah, the unfortunate last 30 seconds of a pig's life where it suffers in a gas chamber is completely fine with me.
It really is because that's how it goes from farm to table.
There's no happy way of doing it.
Thank you.
Okay, yeah, I mean, like for me, if they didn't suffer in a gas chamber, it's wrong to murder them. Like, for me, similar to murdering a human being. But we can talk about... So how should we murder them?
well i don't think we should murder them i don't think it's morally justifiable because i've been vegan for 10 years and had to stab an animal in the throat yet you know since i've been to be been vegan i stabbed it in the chest
For the record. I've seen you. I know you're on Shipwrecked and you were advocating for killing the animals on the island. I did kill them.
You're not on an island now. You're actually multimillionaire and you can eat whatever you want. You've got personal chefs, but you still choose to – obviously, you don't need to eat animals, do you? Do you believe you need to or just want – you just said that it's tasty. You want to. Yeah, well, I want to, and I understand that in today's society with supermarkets and all the miracles that you guys talk about that you can exist on a vegan diet. Yeah, but – so that means I could, right, because I live in the 21st century. I live here in a first-world country with supermarkets and food you can buy everywhere.
people of Africa. I'm not a hunter-gatherer. I'm not one of the people who lives in southern Gujarat in India who has to depend on fish. I understand I have a choice of what I can eat.
I understand that.
And I eat meat and that's the way it is. I like meat and I don't see anything wrong with me. And I don't care that the animals have to die because it's just an unfortunate part of being part of the food chain. Just as a shark or a crocodile or a polar bear wouldn't care if it was eating me or my child. It wouldn't care. And as much as I'd be a bad parent if I let my daughter get near a polar bear, I could not argue the polar bear did anything morally wrong by eating a person.
I don't think you can.
Would you shoot the polar bear to protect your daughter? I'd shoot a polar bear to eat it, given half a chance. Yeah. But I'm saying, would you shoot – you would obviously – if your human was about to be eaten by, like, a polar bear, would you shoot the polar bear to protect the human being? Say you didn't know the human. I'd shoot a human to protect another human, into the right circumstances. Me too. People do it all the time. Me too. Yeah. Me too. Well, 100%. I would use lethal force to protect someone's life. Absolutely. 100%.
and my family's or whatever. I'm not against killing.
I'm not against killing, like, per se. I believe killing can be justified in certain situations, right? What I am against.
What I am against is, well, just against innocent beings being enslaved and decapitated so I can eat a piece of their body. That there I don't think is justified. So there's a difference between justifiable killing.
to protect self-defense, things like this, and unjustifiable killing for a bacon sandwich, a bit of taste pleasure or whatever. I don't make that difference at all. I can't make that distinction, and I certainly don't. I certainly don't.
put animal lives and human lives on the exact same plane of importance at all. Like, like a lot of, do you, do you think that pigs and cows are as important
as people, do you feel their lives are worth as much as a person's life?
Well, what we could do is we could do a little, we could play it. It's not, it's like a logical consistency test and it's, it's to, it's for this exact topic, what you're bringing up right now. Is it a word trap?
I'm ready if it is, but go ahead.
It's not a word trap. It's just basically we share, we share a common, like morally relevant trait with animals and it's our,
uh, conscious experience. Now you could say that we have more intelligence in animals, of course, especially we could use a pig, for example, pigs are more intelligent than dogs. Okay. We, we know that scientifically all those, they're at least comparable and in some studies do better in some, some studies dogs do better, but they're about on par or better in certain studies. Let's just say,
Let's say we have a...
Is there something about animals, right? When you look at, say, a pig, is there something about that pig that obviously I don't think you would agree with putting human beings in gas chambers to
eat them for bacon, yeah? You make a distinction there. Well, of course I wouldn't.
Thank you.
Why would I want to eat a human being? In fact, if you give me 60 seconds, let me tell you something that humans and animals have in common. It's a very basic concept that almost every animal in the world has in common besides the octopus and a few others. It's called the preservation of one's own species. So if you take a piranha, tiny little angry fish with a brain the size of a pea, you put any piece of meat or a human or a horse or a dog or a pig into that pond and it's bleeding, the piranhas are going to rip it apart. But piranhas don't eat other piranhas. No species
The preservation of one's own species is more important than the preservation of other species. That's why lions don't hunt and eat other lions. That's why they eat other things. So if you want to talk about traits that we have in common, then I as a human saying, yeah, screw the pig, I'm going to eat him.
And I'm not going to kill any other humans.
There's something that we have in common with every other species because I'm not interested in killing or eating humans. And I don't think killing humans is right. Almost ever. There's almost no justifiable reason to murder somebody or to be cruel to somebody.
But pigs, I simply don't care about.
The human species murder each other all the time. I know. Humans are some of the most sick, evil animal on Earth. Yeah, they are. We find the most creative ways to torture and murder each other. We murder each other on masks, murder children. Human beings are not some amazing species, moral species. I mean, there are...
created morality we can act we can act morally god created morality my friend and humans know it's wrong and if a human doesn't know it's wrong then we can argue that there's something wrong with that human
He is a defective person.
I just would like to stick, if we can, if we may, I would like to stick on this point about
humans and animals you you you have a separator here you wouldn't want you wouldn't want to see humans factory farmed and
put in these places. So there's got to be something, a trait that's different. And now, are you saying that the trait that separates humans from animals, it's like a morally relevant trait that we possess, that the animals do not possess? Yeah, it's that they're not humans. I care about the preservation of my own species because I'm not a psychopath.
Whereas a pig is not human, and I'm not interested in the preservation of pigs.
What do you mean by species? What do you mean by human? We are human. Is it something about our DNA or something like that?
a multitude of factors. Is it because we are more intelligent and it's our DNA? I just want to find out what these differences are. Well, as somebody who doesn't believe in God, I'll speak in your language because if somebody who doesn't believe in God, they will say that every species evolved independently in and of itself and humans are...
Yeah, it is our DNA. It's the fact that I can mate with another human and create another human. Everyone knows what a human is, but I would say a human is made in the image of God.
That's what I would say. And a pig is not made in the image of God.
It certainly is not made in the image of God, neither is a cow.
In fact, cows and pigs are made in the image of what humans made them into.
So as a religious person, there's no argument you could possibly give me to see any lower life form or any animal besides a human.
as equal to a human because animals aren't made in the image of God.
Thank you.
So...
if there were a species of human being that well beings that look exactly like us but weren't made in god's image and they shared like all of our morally relevant traits like the consciousness experience they could experience the same level and depth of suffering as us except they weren't made in the image of god but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between uh being that like you know so we were we were made in the image and there's a group let's just say they they evolved separately from us sure so is it okay one second let me finish my point and then i'll let you go
are okay to do to them
what we do to animals because they're not made in the image of God. And you wouldn't be able to tell us apart, really. If I'm correct,
Isn't an octopus
an insanely intelligent animal,
with a very complicated nervous system that feels pain and emotions just like humans do.
Am I correct in that? I think that's true. They're also delicious and I don't care about an octopus. So if that answers your question.
then that answers your question.
But like--
Well, it doesn't really. I'm just trying to figure out. So basically, because humans are made in the image of God, we can't do to humans what we do to animals. Nope. The commandments of God, when they say thou shall not kill, talks about other human beings. It does not speak about animals.
It doesn't say that. It says thou shalt not murder, doesn't it? Thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say thou shalt not. Well, it says thou shalt not kill, but then in Leviticus chapter 11, it tells you which animals you can eat and which animals you can't. And, you know, the Islamic holy book tells you exactly how to slaughter them and which animals you can eat and which animals you can't.
So it's easy.
Does it say anything about not eating dogs? In Islam they do, but I don't think in Christianity they mention how much animals. Leviticus chapter 11, I believe, is a differentiation between what the animal eats and what its hoof shape is. Obviously this was written a very long time ago. If someone in the chat wants to correct me or look this up, I believe it says...
If it has a hoof that's split in half and chews of the cud, you can eat it, which does not refer to camels, but it refers to basically every other livestock animal that we have today.
I've read the Bible many times.
Yeah, and these animals are selectively bred by humans and they're kept in factory farms and put under immense... Okay, look, if you're saying because we are created in God's image, and we can't actually prove that, can we? Like, we have to believe that's a faith.
We have to have faith in that, yeah?
You have to, you have to have faith. It's like a belief that you have that no one can actually verify or disprove.
is what I'm like. I can't really say, oh, no, we weren't.
Yeah.
Like, you just say, well, yes, we were. Yeah, but you can't never get to a point.
We could go on indefinitely with this because you could say something to me like, oh, we shouldn't kill and eat pigs because it's cruel. And I could say...
Yes, we should. And no, it's not cruel. But I don't try to redact the arguments down to such a basic level. I like to try to give a little bit of nuance and try to inject my knowledge into the situation a little bit more. But no, I don't think any argument can be made that animal lives are as important as human lives. And if you really, truly believe that, if you really, truly, in your heart, believe that an animal life is as important as a human life, then I believe that there is something, and I don't mean this in an offensive way. Let's talk about someone, let's talk about third party.
all exactly of equal value, then that person is less intelligent than a piranha.
or a shark, because piranhas don't think that piranha lives are less important than the other animals lives. And the preservation of your own species is something innate in all of us, in almost every creature that lives. So if you want to say that you're less intelligent than a piranha and you believe that a pig's life or a chicken's life or a cow's life or a lamb's life is exactly as important as yours or mine or my kids or your kids, I don't believe that you really think that.
Well, it depends on who the person is really. Cause if you're talking about a piece of shit, then I don't see them as any more worthy than a fly.
Yeah, of course. If you're talking about a pretty good person, they try their best. In general. They try their best. A child.
Like me, like if you met me 10 years ago, you probably thought, bloody, he's a lost hope. But, you know, I turned my life around now. I try to do good in the world, and I try to, you know, leave a positive mark on the world. And I have to say, your story, sorry, to digress a little bit. I didn't know anything about you. Your story is actually pretty cool.
So, you know, because I talk just because you're a vegan and I disagree with you and I don't give a shit about animals doesn't mean that I can't tell the...
27, 28, I haven't refreshed it, 30 something thousand people watching on my audience, that your story of being a gangbanger and a piece of shit and a criminal and turning it all around isn't inspirational. So I know that's off topic and I'm not trying to throw you off, but actually well done to you because...
A lot of people, and I've met a lot of them, don't end up where you are today, given those circumstances. Most of my friends are still in jail. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. I appreciate you saying that. Well, I didn't know it until you introduced yourself.
I literally didn't even know.
Okay, well, thank you very much. I've been...
very transparent about my past as transparent as I can be. And, you know, and, uh,
a lot of my friends are still either in prison on drugs or in gangs or you know a lot of people don't make it out of that world so thank you but i i am trying to to
do right but this is something that i really care about even like i've been in violent situations i've been targeted i've been uh held hostage at gunpoint i've been beaten bashed i know what it's like to be a victim i've also
victimized people and I think that they're both wrong, like they're wrong to do. Right. And I know you're making a distinction between humans and animals, but if I saw someone back then,
If you saw... Let me ask you this. If I was being cruel to a dog in front of you, like say I had a hot iron and I was putting it in their eye and they were squealing and that, you would just feel nothing? No. If you're working at a dog factory, killing the dog so you could eat it.
I would not care because it's your dog, your farm, your business, your factory, your life. I'm a free market capitalist. And if you're a producer of dog meat, all well and good. If I saw you torturing...
anything for any reason, I'd say, well, what's the point in that? What's the benefit? Are you providing anyone with a meal? Are you providing anyone with food sustenance? No, you're just being a dick.
So yeah, I would have a go.
Well, let's just say that I have plant-based food available to me. There's plenty of plant-based food available to me. I'm torturing them because...
Because you want to eat them. Because I just made the choice to over the plant-based food. I'm deciding I want to torture them to eat them because it's basically just a flippant choice. I could eat plant food, but I don't really like it as much. I like torturing animals and eating them. I mean, I wouldn't have an issue with that. I love vegetables, but I also love eating meat. And that's how free market capitalism works. You see, Joey, I think a lot of people like you. And I don't mean to offend you.
They think that they can educate somebody like me. They think I'm some big dumb thug and they think that I don't know where my food comes from. And they think they're going to show me videos of certain factory farms and talk to me of the processes in which chickens lay eggs and the cages they're kept in. And I'm going to go, oh, my God.
This is wrong.
But that's not the way I'm programmed. If I was super interested in feudal Japanese history and I went to all the feudal Japanese history conventions and spoke about it in every conversation when I got drunk with my friends, which I tend to do. And you looked at me and said, Tristan, I just don't give a shit about feudal Japanese history. I don't care. It's not an issue I care about.
I don't want to learn about it. I don't want to know about it. I'd say, you know what? Good for you. Veganism is one of these things that you believe you could actually convince somebody like me because you think you can open my eyes. My eyes are wide open.
One of my friends is in this house right now. He used to work at a slaughterhouse. My eyes are open. I know exactly where my food comes from. And I do not value the lives of cattle,
and animals produced for food. I just don't. I value them in the way that they provide sustenance
for people to eat.
I actually run a charity which provides food for our children in war-torn countries, takepledge.com, if anyone wants to check it out. And I don't...
give a shit if it's beef or if it's corn.
as long as people are eating. That's the way that I think about things. So you can't really open my eyes to this because I don't think there's many things you know that I...
I'm ignorant of.
Well,
I mean, I don't think you've ever been inside of these places, have you? I've been inside of pig farms and chicken farms. I've never been inside of a cattle farm, no.
not myself i've seen you in i've seen you on a pig farm backyard pig farm or something in romania like with one or two pigs there
Well, no, that wasn't a pig farm. I've been inside a real pig farm in England when I was younger. A factory? Yeah. A factory pig farm? Yeah, I was doing delivery drives with some guy.
So I've, I've been inside, but, but again, I've seen all the videos. I've seen all the images. I've killed pigs myself. I'm not a hypocrite. Yeah.
I'm not one of these people. You know what?
Shout out to this guy. He probably doesn't remember me. There's a guy on the island with me when I was in that reality TV show. And some people said, I'm not going to kill the pig. I'm not going to eat the pig.
And some people said, I'm going to actively take part in the killing of the pig and I'm going to eat the pig. Obviously, the killing was done by me because I was the one of the producers most trusted as the most competent person on the island. But there was one or two people there who said, you know what? I don't want to be around when the pig is killed. I don't want to be around when we have to strip it and gut it and cut off its skin. But I am going to eat it.
And I think we could both agree
That that's hypocritical.
If they're going to eat it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to know the reality of where your food comes from.
One is displaying normal human emotion. You're displaying something that is close to, I would say, people who tend to not care about the suffering of animals or... I don't know if you... You don't take pleasure in cruelty to animals, do you?
Really? Is that a serious question?
Of course you are. I mean because I, well, it is a serious question because most people don't have your position that they don't care how cruel someone is to animals. You know, like basically I could do anything to animals as long as I'm going to eat them. That is not my position. I think if you were going to kill animals, you should kill them in the most humane way possible. I said there is no killing of an animal without cruelty.
Yeah, yeah. Okay, philosophically, yes, if you believe it's cruel to kill, like without suffering,
like that the act of killing is cruel enough itself because you're robbing them of their life absolutely so it justifies it because you're eating it but but you also said factory farming is an amazing invention even though it's just basically an infinite suffering machine that's like dead birds dying on their faces and uh pigs suffering to death on the floor of their own like laying in their own feces yeah like mothers like stuck in cages and like piglets being smacked on the ground and then like their heads like on the concrete you say horrible places i know you say
use is trying to get some sort of emotional response. Mothers. I have a mother. You have a mother. There's the mother of my children who I care deeply about. It's a chicken.
- Yeah, well, it's a pig, it's a cow. Yeah, but it's a wonderful, wonderful,
system that anywhere I go in the world, I can ask for a plate of chicken and somebody can get me chicken and cook it for me and put it on my plate. Now factory farming plays a massive role in that, whether anyone likes it or not. So it is very impressive.
Back when my parents were growing up, you had seasonal vegetables. You couldn't even get oranges in the winter. And now any time of any year in any city in the civilized world, I can get a steak.
I eat steak every day. I think that's a beautiful thing. Now, I understand that factory farms are a part of this system. When I say the system is incredibly impressive because I can eat steak whenever I like, that doesn't mean I'm going to sit at a factory farm and get my dick out and get off on the fact that all these cows are being tortured. And, you know, I'm not a sadistic person.
But I understand that it's part of the system, the wonderful system of global food supply.
And I love steak. So would I abolish factory farms? No.
Sorry to interrupt you. I mean, I just was, uh, I'm just actually very surprised that you know so much about the industry. Like if you know as much as I know and you're calling it wonderful because it's like something like, you know, I've been in some pretty horrible situations and I've seen some pretty horrible like videos like, but when I, um,
became an investigator and seen what's goes on in these places. Like it.
it is some of the most disgusting
vile, horrific violence and cruelty and stench of corpses lying in there. They die in their own feces, these animals. And these chickens are six weeks old. They grow so quick.
sorry, they just grow so quickly that they break their own legs and they lay there suffering to death. Like millions of birds die before they even get to the slaughterhouse.
to call that wonderful like just seems like either like maybe you just think the technology is wonderful or something but inside there like if you've seen if you've seen all the footage i don't know how wonderful can come to your mind like and most people that i've ever spoken to and they've done they've actually done uh research on this they've done massive polls like most people are against factory farming yeah they say they are most they say they are and then people talk about oh you have to get rid of farming because climate change yeah let's get rid of all the farms that's
I don't want to eat beans and I don't want to eat crickets and I don't want to eat plant-based food. I want to eat meat and factory farms are part of the supply chain. It's not that a factory farm itself is beautiful. You have to understand these are all intricate wheels in a system which gives people the ability to have whatever food they like on whatever plate they like in whatever city they like globally. So I find that impressive. That's an impressive feat of human ingenuity.
actually not what I said one. Okay. And two, my, my, my next, next question would be, did you think that I don't know stuff before you spoke to me?
Because you seem surprised that I know a lot. Do people think I'm stupid? I don't get it. Some people do. No, I don't think you're stupid. I think you're very bright, and I think you've been well-educated, and you speak very coherently, and you have a higher intelligence than a lot of people that I speak to. And every pig and every cow.
What I do come across, though, is people who think they know about what goes on, but have just seen a few videos here and there. But maybe...
you know, maybe just being there and that visceral stench and the hearing the murmuring of the animals and seeing them dying on their faces might pull you off of the position that that this is just a wonderful invention where I get to. Zero percent. Whatever I want in the country. Zero percent. In the world. And zero percent. No, I understand the realities of where my food comes from. And I think a lot of people do.
That's my point about the...
I think a lot of people do. I think that a lot of people watching right now are going to learn a thing or two. And I don't think anyone who listens to me and follows me is going to think, oh, I better convert to veganism. I believe that you can be a vegan if you like.
I don't mind if you're a vegan, but you mind if I eat meat.
Exactly. And I'll tell you why. It's not because I'm trying to control people or whatever. People think that I want to control. Oh, why do you care what I eat? I see this a lot. Vegans are trying to control what I eat. They're weirdos. People think veganism is some diet. It's just a diet. I choose to be carnivore. You can be whole foods. You can have a raw diet. And I choose to be a vegan. It's a diet choice. It's actually we care what people consume because on the other end of that, animals are being raised, mutilated.
they are murdered in like a gas chamber or a slaughterhouse filled with blood in order to meet that demand. So people are collectively making up that demand. And so we are trying to stop people from making up that demand so the animals can stop being bred into infinite lives.
torture and then murder well some some some people never will because we understand that very well and I think that
Yeah, let's let's move on to something that we might agree on, because I think that you've got your points across. I've and this is what I meant, by the way, when I said it's not going to be much of a debate because I don't really have anything to say, oh, you shouldn't be vegan and you shouldn't preach it because X, Y, Z. And, you know, factory farming is 100 percent great and there's no suffering involved. I'm not one of those people. I understand reality. This is why I don't think there was ever much of a debate to be had in the first place, because I'm just one of those people who understands the world exceptionally well. I understand where my food comes exceptionally well.
for it to be this way. And that's just the way it is. So let's change subject.
because I think you're going to like this one. Let's talk about trophy hunting. Okay.
Because I think we'll find a lot more common ground with trophy hunting than with the food that I eat. Because I'm never going to agree with you that I care at all about how a chicken is treated. I just won't.
But we can move on and maybe we can be friends again.
Well, yeah, we can move on. We can. I really do. We can talk about trophy hunting.
I really want to just ask you this. I can do whatever I want.
to a bird, a chicken,
I can grab a chicken, slowly pluck their feathers out, and they could be screaming. I can burn them and cinch them. And then I can do that to 10,000 chickens, one after the other, in just this infinite loop of torture, right? I can just do that continuously. And all you have to do is move your hand over a button to stop it. Would you do that, just stop that suffering, or you just don't care even that much? You could just push a button and I'd stop.
Well, one, you couldn't do that to my chickens, because if I had chickens, they live in my garden, etc. And I just cut their heads off. In fact, when I killed chickens before, I broke their necks and cut their heads off. That's what I did. I took no pleasure in torturing animals. I think that anyone who takes pleasure in torturing anything, there's probably something a little bit wrong with them. If you, if you, I genuinely don't care that much. It's a chicken.
You don't eat KFC for health, though, do you? You eat KFC for pleasure. Well, KFC makes you strong. Yeah, KFC. It's Friday a lot. We can talk about protein and that. KFC isn't great. You eat KFC for pleasure, don't you? I do. You choose KFC for pleasure. Absolutely.
So how is eating KFC for pleasure different to what I'm doing for pleasure? Say I got pleasure out of torturing these animals. It gave me sensory pleasure. I really like them squealing or whatever. You really like the taste of KFC. And these animals are suffering in horrible factory farms in order to bring you that KFC. How is what you're doing any different to what I'm doing? Let me restructure your question. If I could push a button and stop it. And by stopping it, it means you just take a big butcher's knife and cut the chicken's heads off.
then I would push that button because why would I want anything to be tortured? I don't see the point in it. But if you were just raising them in cages as a lot of places in Africa and a lot of places in Argentina and all the places where our meat comes from in the world, where they try to raise animals as many as they can, as fast as they can, and as small a space as they can, these people who are very hardworking people, I think we'll all agree, who are trying to make their living, who if you shut down their factory farm probably wouldn't have much else to do,
them carelessly. And if they're killing them in a relatively humane way, I mean, Islam gives a guide on how to kill animals. And I know everyone's like, oh, that's cruel because it's with a knife. Well, there were no bolt guns invented in the time of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. So the guidance is actually very, very good. Don't let the animals see the knife, etc. There's no...
Nobody on earth who would choose having the animal tortured as opposed to killed as humanely as possible. But if you were running a factory farm and you were a Chinese man in Wuhan and you were sick of your life and you were cruelly kicking your chickens all day and whipping them, I wouldn't come to your farm and tell you how to run your chicken farm. And I would probably still buy your chicken.
I don't put the lives of chickens. You would fund me. If I was torturing chickens, you would go, here, mate, here's 20 bucks. Give us a couple of those chickens, and you'd keep me in business. How cheap are they?
- Just about an average bucket of chicken. - I don't care about chickens. I don't care about chickens. If I could- - They suffer the same as other animals is what I'm saying. They have a brain, a functioning nervous system. They feel they want to avoid pain. They want to- - Of course they do. - They are sentient beings. They're like birds. - Of course they do. Yes.
I mean, if it was a
if you see like i just don't see them any different to any other bird or any other uh animal like i mean i don't know why you make a distinction between a pig and the dog these are both animals who are having a subjective experience they both experience if you can't if you can't make that distinction over the example i gave you earlier about every single life form that is farmed on a farm being created by humans and selectively bred for a reason and that dogs were bred to be your friend provide companionship go hunting with and pigs were bred to get as big as possible as fast as possible so we can kill them if you really can't see the distinction between
pig and a dog, that's okay because if people eat dogs,
I don't care that they eat dogs. I'm not going to eat my dog. I like my dog. My dog is my friend. I don't care if a pig is smarter. If I had a pig, it would be for food, but I don't eat pork anyway. We're just using pigs as an example.
But I'd happily eat a cow and kill a cow. I have no problem with that. And nobody is ever going to change my mind. I think that this is the attitude that a lot of vegans don't really know exists out there in the world. Between the millions and millions of people who they think they can convince with some slaughterhouse video. We don't.
care about chickens we don't care we eat them that's what they're for the people that can i i know you don't just keep saying you don't care i mean obviously if you did care it would be extremely hard to to to continue that behavior because when i was uh when i was in gangs for example like we had to not care about the enemy you know and if you did start to care about the enemy you couldn't really do
what you had to do. You had to put this shield up and this shield helped you get through
what you had to get through. If you started caring, basically, you couldn't be a very good
person in the gang world. You couldn't be a very good soldier if you always cared. But
You have to actually have this feeling of not caring for these animals, knowing that they suffer and they're harmed and they're slaughtered and all this stuff. If you did care, you wouldn't be able to eat the animals. And I do care. And there's probably a bunch of people watching this. So if someone who's what... Obviously, you're not to be convinced of this. But if there's people that are watching who do care about the experiences of other animals and do see them as...
you know, valuable in their own right, because they have a conscious experience, then those people
shouldn't be...
consuming animal products, right?
The ones who do care.
No, no, I believe that we live in a modern world and the world is completely detached. Unfortunately, the supply and demand world and the way that we get our products is entirely detached from the system that creates them. I believe if someone actually really likes chickens and wouldn't harm a chicken themselves and they continue to want to eat chicken, that doesn't bother me at all. Just in the way that if you're wearing a pair of Nike sneakers and you don't care that some child in China sold them or you use an iPhone and you don't care about the appalling conditions at the iPhone factories...
And you continue to use your iPhone. Yeah, you'd rather not. You'd rather it be made by happy, smart people getting paid $400 an hour. I'm sure you would. So would I. But the world of supply and demand, this isn't communism. The state doesn't produce everything. We live in a world of competition and things are produced in the way that they're produced so everyone can get their hands on everything. And it's a beautiful system if you have enough money. So, no, I would not tell people who care about chickens to stop eating chicken to answer your question.
Thank you.
Okay, you'd just say, yeah, you can care about chickens and do what happens to them in order to get KFC, and those things, they're in harmony. Caring about chickens and buying KFC are in harmony.
Do you believe it?
Yeah.
you know i think it's a complete contradiction you can't care about like even for for you tristan like you can't care about animals being tortured while you're paying for their torture
I mean, I buy a lot of alligator skin shoes. I know how cruel those alligator farms are.
Yeah, and that's nothing to do with food. Wait a second, actually. Wait a second, brother. Brother, that is a very good point, actually, because you wear cows as well, which has nothing to do with eating. I do wear cows. Well, it's a human utility. Everyone needs leather.
Yeah, but it's interesting. But yeah, well, no, we don't need leather. Obviously, there are other ways of, there are other fabrics. They're synthetic fabrics today, but they haven't existed for very long. And you know that. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, but they exist now. But my question to you is because I'm not trying to do a gotcha or anything, but this is actually just a bit different. Because I said food, if you're going to eat them.
as cruel as you basically want so long as you're getting food from from these animals right and people yeah not not misinterpreting what we said so the shoes with made out of say cow's skin or alligator leather that's not food that's that's that's their skin so yeah yeah well we're using the end product we raise the cow to be an end product so i did say food but this isn't a gotcha moment because if you want to kill because the cows that are killed for leather aren't eaten
It's too expensive to raise the cows with the high quality hides. You have to have them at certain elevations to make the car seats. And for example, a Bugatti or a Rolls Royce. And they don't eat the meat because it's not financially viable to cart them off and then chop them up because it's too cheap. I mean, they usually don't eat the meat. Let's say the cows are completely discarded. Yeah, fine.
You raise the cow for leather. It's fine to kill white cows for their skin.
- 100%. - And in India where they trek them across like long, like long treks and they're suffering and then they export that leather. It's fine to buy that leather, just animals suffering, like really horrible lives, just for leather. Yeah. - Yes.
and when calves are skinned and
Like, like little calves are skin for their calf skin. That's fine too. Baby cows just, just to wear them.
Yes. Even though there's like other options available. That's all cool. I mean, there are other options available, but I don't think you have a pair of shoes as cool as my alligator skin shoes. I think my shoes are better than your shoes.
Well, I don't know. I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer had a pretty nice human skin shoes. I wouldn't be seen dead in a pair of human skin shoes. Of course, though. A human and an alligator aren't the same thing, so here we are back at square one.
I like my alligator skin shoes and raising. In fact, an alligator skin is exceptionally cruel because they have to raise them to be the exact same size. No good pair of alligator skin shoes is made from one alligator. You need two because you need the patterns on the front to be exactly the same. And they're killed at a specific age, depending on what your shoe size is, depending if you get them custom made. So it's particularly cruel. But I like my alligator skin shoes. That's what the alligators are raised for. The alligators weren't happily walking around in the wild when someone saw him and said, I'm going to make a pair of shoes out of this guy, you know.
What they did was they farmed them, they raised them, they made my shoes, and I loved the end product.
And I do not feel sorry for those alligators at all. So basically, as long as we get pleasure from the action, as long as we get some goods, yeah, some goods from the action.
some goods from the action we can
Gelatin, bone marrow, skin, leather. I'm down with it. Anything we want to like. So if I actually had like if I had an animal right here on stream, I could have an animal right here. So it's the cows are highly sentient beings like dogs. Yeah. They care for their young. They experience all the basic experiences we do as human beings. We might have a.
you know, some intelligence over cows, but most basic experiences... I have a lot. Well, there are human beings that, well, how about this, there are human beings that have about the sentience of a cow,
and about the experience of a cow and they're born like that we protect them with human rights made in the image of God
Okay, yeah, but if they weren't made in the image of God and that you couldn't tell them apart from other humans, would it be okay to skin them alive and make shoes out of them? I mean, you know I have a distinction between animal life and human life. We've been over this a hundred times. You're saying that I think we should be able to skin people with mental deficiencies to make shoes out of them, and that's my argument.
How about this?
How about if these human beings were just, they weren't made in the image of God, they were farmed?
And like they were somehow we were somehow creating a farm of human beings. So they're not made in the image of God. They were like we were creating them. And you couldn't tell them you couldn't tell the difference between
like us and them in terms of our experience. And we're basically hominids, you know, and these people existed on this farm. It's fine for me to torture them. If you can't distinguish between human life and animal life, then I feel very sorry for you.
Because I'm a father. I have kids. My daughter is maybe not as smart as a...
dog, she's only two
do do i think you should be able to make shoes out of my daughter is that what you're saying because i don't think i'm not your daughter i'm creating a hypothetical well no no well we're not hypotheticals because we live in the real world don't we
I've given lots of hypotheticals, but I don't like to go down the hypothetical route. I said if I could kill animals without torturing them and without being cruel and it would be ideal if they could all live wonderful lives, I can give hypotheticals too. But we live in the real world. We live in the world of supply and demand. We live in the world where third world people are trying to get the best living they can by raising animals as fast as they can in as big numbers as we can. And...
It's fine.
It's really fine. I believe it's fine. You don't eat animals for third world people, that's for sure. You eat animals because you like the taste and it's for pleasure and things like that. But I was just creating a hypothetical to test this. I'm trying to test...
It's just a consistency test, by the way. It's just trying to test whether or not if there were human beings that weren't made in the image of God and we sort of created them because this is actually logically possible. So if I made a human form...
If I had made a human farm, basically they're my human beings. Is it okay for me to cut them up? You couldn't distinguish them.
Well, this is actually a very, very interesting point.
This is a very interesting point, and we are as humans going down this road, so we might find some common ground here. Because people are talking about raising humans that are, for example, you, they'll take your DNA code and raise a human without the...
brain or mind or consciousness or whatever, so that you could have access to that human's liver or heart or, you know, I don't
believe in that case. No, humans are humans, and I don't believe that we should be doing that.
I believe humans are the image of God. And I don't believe if you started a farm raising humans for organs, for organ transplants, which is an area of science that is being explored right now. Do I think that's right? No, I don't believe in abortion. I don't believe in harvesting the body parts of babies who are eight months or seven months old when they're aborted to take their tissue and their skin and their bone to run human experiments on. No, I think that's all morally evil because humans are humans or animals are animals.
between them.
But yeah, but I was just trying to create this scenario so that they weren't actually made in the image of God to see if that was actually the trait. Every human is created in the image of God. No, because if we created them in our own image, so we could farm them to be slightly genetically different. I created my daughter. In fact, humans have been farmed to be genetically different. Humans have been farmed to be genetically different.
There was a selected breeding program. Then they wouldn't be technically made in the image of God, would they then, Tristan? See, you're going down a road that just has a dead end. They are humans. I'm just trying to find out. So I'm the descendant of African-American slaves. African-American slaves were the product of eugenics programs, of breeding programs, where they got the biggest, strongest slaves and the biggest, strongest women, and interbred them to create bigger, stronger slaves. And it was all a big market. And that was completely wrong. And there's been slave trades everywhere. North Africa being one of the world's largest.
have existed all over the world. If you're saying because I think it's fine to farm cows that I think it's fine to farm people, I'm never ever going to agree with you. Humans are humans and animals are animals.
I don't know if you think that. I'm trying to find out where you feel that if this trait made in God's image didn't exist, like in some hypothetical, whether you would think it's okay to do what we do to animals, to those hypothetical humans. You're never convincing that that is a scenario that exists. It could never exist. Every human is made in the image of God.
Well, basically we can do this. We did these animals that exist right now. They're selectively bred. They're not made how God made them. They're human-created animals. You know about the pigs and the chickens and the cows and the dairy producers. They're all human selectively bred freak shows at the moment. This is eugenics, like genetic manipulation that humans have done to these non-human animals. In fact, being a chicken is just a life of suffering because they're too big to hold their own weight. Now, we do this to animals.
possible and it's just possible for us to do this to human beings as well and they wouldn't technically be made in god's image is it okay to do what we do to animals in in this case in this hypothetical case of humans i'm just trying to figure it out because that case exists all the time and that case is actually the case right now right here in the world if i see a if i'm dating a girl because i think she's big and strong and i want to have big strong children people make these kind of choices all the time are you saying that that child is selectively bred and we can use her to make a pair of shoes
Humans are humans, animals are animals. I can actually cut it off one step before this. I could cut it off at the step, whereas I think if any weirdo was selectively breeding humans for any reason, then no, humans have free will and free agency and they should be able to reproduce with whoever they want. If any human is is selectively breeding humans and that's slavery and slavery is wrong in the first place. So we should never even get there. We care about morals and humanity.
Thank you.
Well, I do care. I just apply the morals consistently. Yeah, but it's a cow. I mean, it doesn't matter if they are human or non-human. And in this case, in the hypothetical case, they would technically be non-human.
human-like
hybrids, you know? So I'm just, I'm just trying to, I'm just asking for consistency in both like places. Obviously I apply, I don't think it's right to enslave animals and decapitate them because I don't see them as morally distinct from
human sentient beings, like not really, like especially when you get down to the sentience of like,
i i don't i don't i don't a child and a pig are pretty like even in terms of sentience to you especially like a toddler so i mean not to me yeah well i mean you might have other reasons to care about human beings like i would if it's no decision between it doesn't matter if it's a child born in china who i've never seen in my life humans humans are animals or animals no one in my chat thinks you're you're coming to a conclusion with this point because this hypothetical scenario you talk about where we selectively bred humans for thousands of years to create mutant humans could
that has some human DNA. I mean, this has never happened. And this isn't the real world that we live on.
This is the real world that we live in. I just didn't believe that being made in God's image was the only morally relevant trick. No, it's not. My argument is that it doesn't have to be morally relevant.
cows and chickens are beneath me and they're beneath humans and i don't care i don't care about cows and chickens in the same way that i care about humans and i never will
Or crocodiles or any life form. Some people have actually thought that way about human beings as well. They've lowered human beings down and used these bizarre justifications to do horrible things to human beings. I'm the product of slaves myself. I'm the product of the slave trade.
My father was an African American. Which is a horrible, horrible... Exactly. It's the squirt of the human race, these horrible... Yeah, why are you trying to correlate these two things? Yeah, and why are you trying to correlate these two things with food production?
I'm saying that what has happened in history... Because the lowest form of every argument is, you're Hitler. That's how all arguments dissolve into. And now you're talking about the Holocaust.
Are you saying that these things happen in history?
No, I'm saying that the mindset definitely is where we lower, where we say these beings don't matter because of X. Well, who says that? God doesn't think that.
Well, people with these kind of animals are obviously sentient beings. You know they can experience torture and suffering and experience the world. They have a subjective experience. If I harmed an animal, everyone knows that that's animal cruelty. That's wrong because they're having their own individual experience. And what people tend to do is they go, they're below me because of X reason, because they're not made in God's image or they're not humans and we are superior. So we can do whatever we want.
It's throughout history and it's what humans have used to justify harming other humans. And yeah, I know it's a bad mindset. I agree. That's a bad mindset.
So where is this going?
Well, I'm just asking to apply like consistent, I mean, you might think it's stupid, but I don't see a cow as any different to, you know,
to other sentient beings like i don't see them as any real difference in terms of there we go and there we go you don't see a cow's that's what i said do you believe that human lives
In terms of how they experience like a knife in the throat, it's just as bad for that cow as it is for like a child. So I think they're both wrong.
you know, that's the food chain. Sharks don't care how I feel. They bit me in half either.
Yeah, but I mean, I don't think what sharks do is like ethical. I wouldn't mimic my behavior and go, hey, you know, sharks, they eat other sharks and lions eat other lions, cubs and horrible things happen in nature. I would never point to nature and say that's an ethical way of us living in civilization. Obviously, that would justify us killing each other and eating each other.
that's never going to be a conclusion that someone like me is going to reach. And it's not going to be a conclusion that any healthy person is going to reach either.
No healthy person is going to ever think that ever.
ever so i mean you keep looking for i don't know what you're looking for me to say
I don't know if you... I'm just trying to figure out what you fundamentally believe is like... Killing humans is wrong, killing animals is fine.
That's what I fundamentally believe. - Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm trying to figure out why that, because to me, that's a contradiction because for the same, I'm trying to figure out why you think it's okay in this case. - Most people disagree with you.
because they are most people don't think killing dogs is okay like but you think killing dogs is absolutely fine i think if someone wants to kill their dog it's fine by me i'm not gonna tell them not to it's their dog and and and and and in the case of like um these animals in poaching that you you brought up as well you have an issue with uh trophy hunting it was it's not so much an issue
So we might find common ground because I'm glad that's over because I'm never, ever going to correlate animal life and human life. That's just not a conclusion that I'm going to reach or I don't think any healthy person is ever going to reach. So fishing for something down that well is always going to be nonproductive.
Not that you'd go fishing.
vegan joke there. No. I'm hilarious. It's a bad joke. I thought it was quite funny. I thought it was funny. Okay, fine. Yusuf laughed. I wouldn't go fishing for humans, that's for sure. My tech guy laughed. That was a good joke. You know, trophy hunting,
I think that trophy hunting...
is unfair. I like predators. I respect bears and lions.
Sharks.
I respect elephants. I respect them because they're mightier than the human. If I could subdue an entire population of cows and have them run across a field because I have a dog chase after them and I could raise them for food, good. I made the cows. I created the cows. Going out there and shooting elephants, I don't think...
is a fair fight. And I think that vegans and people like me should get together and say, let's change the rules of trophy hunting. So you have to fight the animal in a fair way.
Is that an improvement? Is that an improvement on shooting them with guns? Now, I think depending on what the animal is, we should use different weapons.
I mean, fight a lion with your bare hands or fight an elephant with your bare hands? Well, I'm saying like if someone says to me, these big fat Americans usually, sorry Americans if you're listening, but it's usually you. They take these pictures next to these lions with their rifle, like they're some sort of champion. No, no, no, no. If you want to go fight a lion, I think you should have, I don't know, a sword and a shield or a suit of armor and two knives.
Because then at least if you do it, I can respect you. If I walk into someone's head and they have a lion's head mounted on the wall, even me, I'd be a bit like, well, what did you do that for?
And it'd be like, well, I shot it from six miles away with this high powered rifle. Hunting's natural. Hunting may be natural, but your gun certainly isn't.
Two knives, suit of armor, go and kill the lion. Because that way, if I walk into your house, you've got a lion's head on the wall, and you're covered in scars and bruises and cuts. I'd be like...
You're the fucking man.
That's impressive.
Can we at least agree that we should change the rules on weaponry?
Because fewer people would do it. If someone fights a lion with their bare hands and wins, then I think they deserve some kind of medal because that's like an unheard of thing. Good. So let's say that we need to change the rules.
So should we change the rules on factory farming as well? Because we seem to use these beings to escape. We bring them into these prisons, and then we send them into slaughterhouses where they can't escape. And don't you think we should change the rules there too? Nope.
Not at all. I think if you could somehow viably run a lion factory farm or an elephant factory farm, all credit to you. If you managed to pull that off, well done.
So no, I don't think we should. How about this?
How about this, Tristan?
We liberate all of the animals in the factory farm situation, the cows, the pigs, the chickens, the lambs, and even the ones that are going to the slaughterhouse. And the only meat you eat is if you fight a lion with your bare hands and win.
No, that's just stupid. Why would I need to fight a lion with my bare hands and win to enjoy a bucket of KFC?
I think you know the entire ecosystem, no it's fair, it's fair, the man killing the chickens is perfectly entitled and he created the chickens. I'm not against lion factory farms.
by the way i thought god created you wait a second i thought god created the animals one and we're not even eating animals that were created by god too if you're a god fearing like a christian these animals are created by human beings and they're genetically bred freak so is every vegetable so is every fruit isn't this the fruit aren't sentient god created animals to feel pain and suffer with a brain and a sexual nervous system and all that if you believe that why did god create animals to suffer and also experience well-being and happiness and your
Your argument broke down in the first five seconds because you're saying, oh, it's unnatural because these animals are created by humans by selective breeding. So is every vegetable and fruit that you eat. Everyone.
I'm talking about sentient. I'm talking about the beings that matter morally, like sentient animals. Apple, chicken, apple, I don't care.
God created apples not to suffer, no brain, no central nervous system, no pain receptors, no eyes, no...
you know, so there's no nerves. So you can, obviously that seems like something you can eat, um, without causing them any pain and suffering. Yeah. But I don't, I don't care. I don't care about chickens. I know chickens suffer. But,
But what I'm asking is you talked about the Bible and about animals being in the Bible that we can eat, right? But these animals are nothing to do with God. These animals are human selectively bred freak shows. It's more like the work of the devil. We're talking about suffering. We know it's the work of man.
You know the devil didn't build the factory farm, and the devil didn't create the modern day chicken. Do you believe in... If you looked in a factory farm and seen a bunch of chickens suffering on their faces and overgrown bodies, would you say that's the work of God?
No, it's the work of man.
But so men can do evil things. I thought if you believe in God... It would be evil if you did it to people. Chickens I don't care about.
So it's only – so basically anything bad that happens to animals is not –
evil and not not the devil's work it's human work but anything bad that happens to humans is the devil's work you started this by saying that you are no not everything bad that if i'm if an alligator eats me that's not satan
That's nature. I'm talking about factory farms. Just looking at the footage, right? Because anyone can go watch factory farm footage right now. They can go look at my investigations in my Uncovered series. They can look at that, right? And just if you're a religious person, like say you're Muslim, you're Christian, whatever, look in that factory farm, look in that slaughterhouse of the suffering and the animals dying in their own blood and go, is that God or the devil? Well, I think you're falling on your face here because we started this argument with you saying that you don't believe in a God. And now you're trying to say, oh, but it's wrong what happens to chickens.
Oh, is that the devil? And now you're invoking the devil on man-made farming processes, which feed millions of people worldwide. And I'm very grateful for them.
And that's the work of man.
And I love chickens. I'm just fitting the beliefs of others because in Islam actually, you brought up Islam before, but in Islam there's actually like a little bit of something about animal welfare in their religion where they believe that causing animal suffering and cruelty is Islam. And I speak to Muslims quite a lot and we have actually quite productive discussions. Wonderful.
Now, they at least believe that causing animal suffering and cruelty is wrong, is moral, is
morally wrong and it's haram you can't eat that
flesh, right? Are you a Muslim?
No, I'm not a Muslim. Why are you invoking their arguments here?
I live with two. There's one right here next to me. I know Andrew's a Muslim as well now. But what I'm saying is that you don't even believe that causing animals cruelty in factory farms is wrong. And you brought up Islam before and said, oh, they just slit the animals' throats. And you believe that's a good way of doing it. Yes. Yes.
Yeah? Yeah. So what I'm saying is in Islam, you can't even be, you can't,
Every point, every see, I feel like I've met when I said there was never going to be any debate. I think every point that you've tried to raise, we're just going back to things I said within the first 20 minutes.
If you can kill them as humanely as possible, that would be good.
That's what I said an hour ago.
So factory farms are bad because they cause the animals suffering, yeah? No, they're not bad.
So it's just, factory farms are morally neutral, but cutting an animal's head off without them
being cruel. It's better. It's better, yeah. One is good, would you call the suffering? It's all good. I can get food everywhere in the world that I want, and factory farms are part of the supply and demand food chain. It's a wonderful thing that we can feed all these people on the planet. It's a wonderful thing that there are fewer people starving and dying of hunger than there ever was before at any point in human history that we've managed to take many people in the third world, especially in modern-day China, thanks to factory farms, and take them out of poverty and give them the ability to eat food, mainly meat,
every single day. I think it's a wonderful thing, yes. And you'll never change my mind otherwise. Factory farms are fine by me.
And I know what goes on and I've seen them and I don't care.
It's a chicken.
It's a chicken, bro. Like, seriously, I just don't care.
but you don't know you do you actually you can't say that now because you did care a little bit enough no i don't care enough to stop me torturing them you you cared enough to stop me torturing them before in my when i created a chicken torture like scenario well i did care a little bit you like i see the glimmer of empathy in you bro you like hypotheticals and if you're going to torture chickens after this feed and message me that you're torturing chickens i'm going to turn my phone off
And go and live my life.
You want to do that? That's fucked up, but go right ahead.
What do I do? What do I do? Drive over to where you are and tackle you to save the chicken?
If I'm doing it for a bucket of chicken, isn't that like fine with you? That's what I was
That's what I thought your position was. Yeah, factory farm that produces chicken for us tweet is completely fine.
Okay. Well, um,
Well, okay. Should we do some finishing statements or do you want to continue? Is there any other roads you want to go down with? I don't know if you believe. There were generally no roads I wanted to go down at the beginning of this. I think I said at the beginning that this wasn't going to be a debate because I'm not an uninformed person who's going to hear what you have to say.
and go, "Oh my God, wow. Oh, wow. Maybe I should stop being me. I know all the things that you know already."
And eating animals is perfectly fine. I don't care about animals like I care about humans. Humans are morally superior. Humans were given dominion over this earth by God, and we were created in God's image, and humans were sacred.
All of your arguments about what if humans were farmed in this way and, you know, animals, what if I just tortured them for fun? That's not what I do.
I'm not the guy who says animals are, it's fun to torture animals and I love torturing animals. So I'm going to debate this vegan. I'm a guy who has a healthy relationship with food and a healthy relationship with me. I understand where it comes from. And I simply don't care about a chicken.
like I do about humans. So there was never really a debate in the first place, but your fans insisted I debate you.
But I don't really see where we disagree because I know the things you know.
Yeah, well, we disagree on that animals have no value whatsoever, and they're beneath us, and we can do what we want to them. Oh, animals have value. I didn't say animals have no value. Can we talk about masculinity for just before you? I don't know if you want to keep going down this road, but I just want to know what your views on masculinity are.
My views on masculinity... The reason I'm asking... Go ahead, please. I'd like to know the reason you're asking. Because if it's about chickens... It's not a trap. I mean, yeah, I'm just trying to figure out what you...
It's not really a trap. I'm just trying to figure out. I don't mind if it's a trap. Yeah, I know. I know. You're going to say that because I'm not masculine. I mean, that's your opinion. It's fine. I don't care. No, no. I just want to figure out because in my view, like...
do you believe like basically figuring out whether or not you think being masculine is being a protector or helping the vulnerable, those that are, that are, we perceive as like you perceive animals as below you, they, they are,
they're basically they're at our mercy we can do what we want to them these birds they're very fragile they are tiny we can crush them with us you know with our boot um like do you do you think that it is a like eating meat eating these animals is like
form of masculinity or does it make you more of a man or anything like that no i i don't believe that i'm not one of these guys says oh you have to eat meat to be a man
To be a man,
You have to live by your own convictions and you have to stand by your own convictions. I feel like the question is wired in a way, and I don't want it to spiral back down that toilet of, oh, but babies and humans are less vulnerable. So, you know, chickens and humans...
I don't want to spiral back down that same toilet bowl, but being a man,
is about living by your own convictions, standing up and saying, "This is what I believe in," being ready to challenge people and their beliefs, being happy to talk to people, like I'm talking to you now, when a bunch of internet trolls say you're scared to debate veganism, when it's an issue I don't really care about. But being able to stand up, say what you mean, mean what you say,
That's what being a man is about. I'm not saying you have to go around and stab. Oh, I stabbed a pig. I'm so macho.
I mean, it's not an easy thing to do.
Just like punching someone in the face isn't an easy thing to do. You've punched plenty of people in the face and so have I, I'm sure. But that's the nature of the reality of the world that we live in. So no, I'm not going to even fall into the trap of saying you have to eat meat to be a man.
Because, you know, when I've seen you argue with people, people look...
that scared of you a bit, intimidated by you a bit, and you stand up there anyway, no matter what someone says, if someone's eating a burger in your face, and you say, "No, I think this is wrong, and I'm gonna travel around the world and say that this is wrong as much as I want to." That is being a man, and credit for you for doing it. If you wanna go around the world and preach this for the rest of your life, which I assume you will,
then all power to you. But you're never, ever, ever, ever
going to convince people like me because there are smart people out there who know everything about the meat industry you do. You can't hit us with any eye openers. You can't hit us with any weird hypotheticals about non human humans because that's just not real. And I'm going to shrug my shoulders. I'm going to hang up this call after we finish amicably saying goodbye to each other. And I'm going to go and eat whatever I like. And you're going to eat whatever you like. And you're not going to be able to change my mind. So be a man. Say what you mean. Mean what you say and travel around the world and continue doing it.
but you're going to have zero success when it comes to people like me.
I don't care.
i and and you know tristan coming into this i actually already knew that um i just really like appreciated i i just want to say i really appreciate you having this discussion with me on your platform like because you didn't have to you don't have to do anything i didn't like even if people say oh you're scared you didn't have to have me on your platform with all of your tens of thousands of people watching this right now i really am appreciative of that and i'm glad that you don't you're not saying oh you have to eat meat to be a man or whatever like that i mean
you more of a protector or more of a man or thinks it makes you any less of a man to care about this issue you're just saying you don't care about animals i i disagree i do care about vulnerable beings and that's why i try to protect them okay and if anyone was stomping on an animal provided like you know like i was in their vicinity i would rush in and help and i'd i'd get bashed trying to
an animal from and again if i saw a man stepping on a dog i wouldn't walk past smiling so i know and we could go down these same arguments again and again and again and again but i don't think i don't think we're ever going to get anywhere with this
So--
I
I just was trying to figure out your views on masculinity. And if you're saying it doesn't make you more or less of a man to, to what about, about if you've got to eat steak to be a man, you know, eating steak is manly or whatever, something like stupid like that. Or if, or if you eat vegan, you're going to be feminized or turn into like, I have said the exact opposite.
I saw this fat...
soy dork standing as barbecue grill and his crocs and his shorts with his in his low income house flipping these burgers being like oh yeah i'm such a man because i could barbecue i'm like you think that makes you a man
Bro, you look like a middle-aged fat lesbian. What's wrong with you? You're not a man. If I came into your house and stole your burgers, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Not that...
Not that, I mean, yeah. So I've actually said the exact opposite a few times. No, I don't think it's mutually exclusive.
But yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter. Well, you can be a vegan and be a man and protect the vulnerable, protect your family. And if you had to bear arms and go to war and, you know, do all these protect the vulnerable, protect your children. There's a stereotype that just because you care about like
other animals that aren't dogs or whatever, that makes you less of like a man or whatever. And I
your following, they
they listen to what you say. They really do, mate. You've got a huge influence and people respect you. I look at all of your comments, I look at your followings, it's massive. People respect you and something about you that they listen to.
you know i was just hoping that there's some people that that listen to you that that you might be able
sort of bring them off of this at least this anti-vegan stereotype kind of thing where people are if you're a vegan you're a bitch or if you're a vegan you're you're part of the matrix or you've fallen for some propaganda or you're you're like you know that people bring all that shit it really it just fundamentally could mean that people just care about the experience of animals that people just don't generally care about so i mean it's the exact same point i made about japanese history earlier like people have different passions and people have different things that they fight fight
Some people don't care. Some people don't care about the things that I say or the things that I do. And that's the way it is. But no, I think that most people I know who I would describe as bitches, to use your word, this guy's a bitch. Because 99% of people eat meat, especially where I live, the 99% of the people I meet are bitches. So I wouldn't say it's mutually exclusive. No.
Read, be smart, be a man. Don't be afraid of standing up for your values. Train yourself, become physically strong, protect and provide for the people who you care about, the people who you care about. I think that's what makes you a man. And if you want to be a vegan, I truly don't care.
which is why I started this off with, this isn't a debate.
Because I have no real disagreement on what you're doing.
It's been a discussion though, and I think it's been like more than what you thought it might be. I thought you were just going to come in and say you don't care, it's all fine, I don't care, and then like it wouldn't be, but we have actually got into a more of a discussion than...
maybe you expected yeah yeah i mean more my position is that i i don't care and i think i've maintained that quite well but yeah i think that we both know a lot about this topic which is why i thought i'd sit and talk to you because i imagine that especially the people watching on youtube i can imagine what your comment section is like this guy's a meathead this guy's stupid this guy is x y and z and they thought i'd sit here and be like oh oh what uh animals are treated badly to make my food like i just thought i'll just put it out there let's have a nice reasonable discussion and we have had a reasonable discussion there hasn't been a single bad word exchange
this and I don't imagine there will be after this. I imagine your fans will attack me though.
And my fans might attack you. That's nature of the internet. Yeah, I mean, they probably already are. They're probably going, oh, they're probably, look, it's,
we've both got a
you I'll probably get it worse than you because you've got a much larger following but um I look the giving me the time to to and also you watch the gas chamber footage on my Twitter that I did expose I stuck the cat I went in
risk my life and stuck the cameras in that gas chamber while it had gas in it and uh brought out the the images from the pigs the first of its kind in the uk so you saw that so you know what goes on you know that i always have is riddled
You know it's riddled with cruelty. You know that it's... Always have. If people care about animals, they should probably care about that issue. It's just that you don't care about the animals. You don't give a shit. You don't care. But if people have any iota of care,
then they should probably stop funding that industry.
But that's not you. If that's your final point, then I'll let you finish on that final point without trying to correct you or interject. I mean, obviously, I know that, you know, you being on my on my podcast is me sharing my platform with you. And if you've convinced someone to not eat animals, then.
More power to you. So
Is that it? Well, Tristan, I mean, that can be it, mate. I just want to say thank you so much for allowing me on. And people were saying I was giving you a platform. You were definitely giving me a platform. Thank you. I'm glad we agree on that. Yeah. We didn't have to. And look, mate, if you ever...
I mean, maybe this is not a good idea because you probably wouldn't care. But if you ever want to come into one of these farms with me when you're in the UK or catch up, have a vegan burger or something like that, then please. Now you're baiting me. Now you're baiting me. I could bring you into these places. Like it would be a good video, mate. You actually see what's going on inside there and have that. And maybe you just go, I don't care still. I won't care. Maybe you might. I super don't care. Send me every video you make for the rest of your life. And I will continue to eat meat as will most of my followers. So God bless you.
Why don't you share it on your platform then and see how many people don't care with you? Well, everyone who has any issue and anyone who has any point who they're trying to get across wants to share my platform and they want me to promote their stuff. Now, I'm going to promote the things that are applicable to me in my life and the things I want to share with the world. You share the things that you want to share with the world. And we'll leave it at that. And I wish you a happy and healthy vegan life. And I will continue to keep eating meat.
God bless you, Joey. Thank you for joining me.
I'm going to continue the stream with that before a while.
Have a nice night. Take care, mate.
Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
So,
Why did I debate?
joey carbstrong it wasn't really a debate
the only reason I gave this guy a platform is one he was very respectful very kind I didn't seem to have any problem with anything he said to me ever despite his fans attacking me for all sorts of
that it was very important for vegans out there who are usually into cornering people with
hypothetical arguments and arguments that don't apply to the real world or giving people ridiculous arguments like, oh, well, you know, what if your child was used to make shoes or a version of that needed to actually encounter somebody in the world who has a healthy mindset.
who stays...
healthy and fit likes to eat meat and simply doesn't see the world the same way he does and you know it's it's fine to see the world in a different way because i have over 30 something thousand people watching this and let me tell you all of us if we spoke about various issues whether it be uh politics wars
weapons, food,
We'll all have different opinions and we'll all see things in a very different way. But I think it is good for the vegans watching this.
to know that
There are lots of people who are smart enough to understand where their food comes from. There are a lot of people who understand exactly
what makes it possible to get the steak and the chicken and the things that they like to eat on their plate. And we think it's perfectly fine, perfectly justifiable, and we simply don't care. So...
I hope you enjoyed my discussion with, uh,
Mr. Joey Carbstrom. And I finished my cigar and probably four cigarettes by now. So that's going to be it.
I'm not going to take anyone else on the stream. I have no one else that I particularly want to call right now. It's getting late. It's now almost one o'clock in the morning. So this has been another Tristan Tate cigar night. I hope you enjoyed it. Even those of you who hated my guest, I can see you in the chat. Hope you enjoyed watching.
God bless you and have a wonderful night.